Discussion of the Gentiles and the Remnant

We’re still in a discussion which began June 7th to try and make sense of the present and future of Zion.

We have seen how priestly authority is more complex than a list of names on a page showing some connection to the Prophet Joseph Smith. We have examined how necessary it is to reconnect with heaven itself to have not just authority, but also power in the priesthood. That connection of power in the priesthood comes from the hand of God, not from another man. The powers of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and the hand of God.  (D&C 121: 36.)
Men do not make priests, God does. For those who have eyes to see, God’s hand in priestly authority has been seen by endowed Latter-day Saints from Nauvoo onward. Men do not make prophets. God has reserved that right for Himself.  (Numbers 12: 6.) God will call them whether or not men accept or recognize them.
We think we have a hope in membership in the church, but the scriptures offer us no reason for that hope. Hope lies in Christ.

We have seen how carefully the Book of Mormon distinguishes between the “remnant” to inherit great promises, and “gentiles” who must align themselves with Christ to become inheritors of those promises. We have seen how members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are always identified with the gentiles (D&C 109: 60), and not the remnant.

We have seen how the gentiles will be given authority over the remnant, and will be permitted to abuse and tread upon them for a season. We have seen that the promises once given the remnant will be given conditionally and for a season to the gentiles, who will receive the book written by the remnant’s forebearers. The gentiles will become a great nation, and will be protected and powerful. They will be greater than any other nation on the earth. We have read how that will result in pride and foolishness.
We have seen that the gentiles will be swept away, just as the remnant was swept away. But those gentiles who will repent and receive Christ will receive a covenant entitling them to also belong to and possess this land as a place of inheritance.
Those gentiles who enter into this covenant, repent, come to Christ and receive Christ’s presence will be preserved as the remainder of the gentiles’ probation ends. When the time of the gentile dominance ends, they will be swept away.
We have seen that the gentiles who do not possess the covenant will become trodden under foot just as the remnant.  The world will descend into darkness, as the Spirit and the Light of Christ withdraws from all but those who are chosen heirs. The wicked will destroy the wicked. The gathered faithful will have the Lord’s Spirit as a protection and shield. The wicked will fear and not go near them, for they will be “terrible” to the wicked.
The covenant people will be gathered in the “tops of the mountains” where there will be a refuge and the Lord will be among them. When the destruction ends and the wicked have been swept away, the Father will return these gathered covenant people to their lands of promise. When He does, His hand will be over them, and will be their rear guard. Nothing and no-one will hurt or make them afraid.

This orients us to begin to consider more carefully what the gentiles have done and will do with their opportunity. So we return to Nephi’s writings to look more carefully at ourselves and the perils we face.

All of this is an experiment to see if it is possible to have this kind of discussion take place on a blog. I used to teach a weekly Book of Mormon class where we examined the text carefully. In those ten years we were able to go from 1 Nephi 1:1 to Jarom 1: 4. I know the material could be taught in that setting because the people were in front of me and I could take in what they were receiving as I taught. This is an alien way to teach, where disembodied words are put into a blog to be read by those who may or may not be attentive, diligent, prayerful and prepared. I cannot gage the effectiveness of this as well except from how the Lord assists me at my end.  At the reader’s end I am divided by circuitry, time and space and cannot measure as I could if you were in front of me.
I will continue the experiment, but remain doubtful that this will work as well as a book or a meeting would. In the end, the reader (or listener) must have the Spirit to be able to take in any light taught. So you will determine for yourself if you will receive what is offered. So, we will see…

14 thoughts on “Discussion of the Gentiles and the Remnant

  1. Denver, I pray that this blog idea will work – it has been a great blessing as I have integrated it into my own study regime of seeking to establish my own relationship with Jesus Christ. FYI that search began about 3 years ago when I read the Second Comforter for the first time.
    About 2 yrs. ago I was strongly prompted to work through John’s Revelation – and the Lord opened the door to my understanding of that book in remarkable ways. As you worked through this BM material covering that same period I had some questions and was told to return to Revelation 7 and 14 and to integrate that material with your blogs – that I would find the answer to a question one of your ‘blogs’ had stimulated. Today’s blog put the capstone or at least raised the question that I need to ask to cap off the ‘answers’ that this whole series of discussions has stimulated. Just needs more prayer, but there is peace.
    I am sure this isn’t making a lot of sense to you, but I wanted to thank you for your work and the Lord for initiating it. I am sure it will continue as long as the Lord sees fit to use you to bless the rest of us. Thanks to Him and to you.

  2. A class would be so awesome….but I realize how improbable that could be. Do you have any idea of how many different people follow the blog (more than the ones listed as “followers”). I am sure.

    I know that we are all at different levels in our understanding, learning and what we absorb by the Spirit, but I am grateful that you are willing to continue. There is such clarity here. I love it!

  3. In your words, “The Lord was not and is not aloof. Neither was Enos. To effectively minister, the personal presence of the one ministering is essential.”

    There is something lost by doing this over the internet. BUT, until you are able to teach this in person, please do not stop this blog.

    That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater to spite its nose.

    Many of us wake up each morning excitedly looking forward to the next post, knowing that if we pay attention we can add another piece of the puzzle to our understanding of the gospel. It may not be ideal, but its working. Please press on.

  4. I have talked to several people who follow your blog – who refuse to participate in the comments because they distract them.
    They have, however, been led to order and begin reading your books which serve as background for these blogs. Therefore, I think it would be difficult to get an accurate ‘reading’ – which is the problem.
    However, I understand this blog is the Lord’s idea anyway and He knows who is listening and who isn’t and who will become one of the ‘covenant people’ and who won’t so I guess I will let Him lead you along – it is His work anyway. Thank y ou for your part in it and your patience with all of us.

  5. Thank you Denver. I’ve been edified by your blogs and have learned a great deal. Please continue.

    -kindest regards

  6. When I first started on your blog, It was so delicious to my soul. Then, for various reasons I quit you blog because I sincerely believed you to be a false messenger who was seeking to deceive others. For three days I endured a spiritual crisis; I had been seeking this very help since 1978 and was so disappointed by my conclusion.

    After three days I was directed to open Nephi’s Isaiah. I began with the preface and received an answer while reading it that brought me back to the blog. Your description of personality differences and the human factor which has existed among every prophet who ever lived, enabled me to toss my stumbling blocks aside and to see things more clearly.

    Since that time, I’ve carefully read all your books except Come Let Us Adore Him. My study of the scriptures has increased dramatically; I’ve fasted and prayed many days; I’ve sought earnestly to forsake all my sins and have been directed to forsaking sins I didn’t even know I had.

    I am currently reading Approaching Zion. I am studying Lectures on Faith. In line are the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Words of Joseph Smith, and I am going through the Second Comforter again more intently, taking copious notes as I go.

    Denver, these small fruits have grown from your efforts in my behalf. Life is busy and the blog helps bring me back to what is most critically important. It is helping me establish habits that will bless me and my family. Even if you offered classes, I don’t know that I could attend, although I would seek to make it possible. I know that many could not attend at all, from various places in the world.

    I use a one to many solution in my work that enables me to speak live to an unlimited number of people and to easily maintain complete control over the discussions with the click of a mouse. It is like being in class because you get to enjoy the heart to heart exchange with people live. You know exactly what the issues are and can address them immediately and effectively. All are very edified.

    I’ve found it to be an extraordinary medium which also removes barriers of entry for participants who might otherwise not be able to benefit. I know you wish to maintain your privacy; however, if you would like to know about the best no-cost and low-cost one-to-many solutions I’ve tried, I will share them with you through Kisi, or if you have questions, she can give you my phone number. I’m not a salesman; I just enjoy the solutions personally.

  7. Denver — Question if you care to answer. How does the oft quoted comment that “the consitution will hang by a thread…the elders will be the ones to save the consititution” relate to the gentiles being swept away and all nations being destroyed (their governments). Is that a quote a tradition, a misunderstood quote? Where does it come from and in what context does it belong in light of what we have been sudying?

  8. I only want to address the quote itself:

    The quote was attributed to Joseph Smith after his death. It was rendered differently by different people. The one I think was most accurate was “if the Constitution was to be saved at all, it would be the Elders of Israel who would save it.”

    The other versions make it definite. I think Joseph would likely to have been indefinite. Hence the preference for the version “if it is to be saved at all.”

  9. Denver,

    I would surely love and prefer being in a personable class, but then the amount of people hearing you would be so limited and what about the people who do not even live near you? With the blog you are able to reach an unlimited audience. I pray the Lord will allow you to continue your teaching via the blog. Certainly there are drawbacks but let the onus be on each of us individually as to whether or not we hear what you are teaching. I, personally, feel like I was lead to your blog and have thanked the Lord many times for the blessing.

    I have to let many of your posts ‘percolate’ for awhile and consider and reconsider them. I have also even been chastened pretty harshly by you – more then once. (I chucked at anonymous thanking you for the ‘gentle rebuke’ because I wish mine had been gentle but then maybe it wouldn’t have stung like it needed to.)

    Another benefit of this blog is that it allows many varying viewpoints, levels of understanding and learning from others and their experiences. It also gives us the opportunity to discriminate between those comments we feel are helpful to read and those which are to be avoided.

    I need to add that one huge benefit of the blog vs a wkly class is that we get to have bi-daily posts to absorb. We may not have many of the benefits of a personal class, however it is clear from many of the comments that a great work is being done here. Thank you!

  10. I have read the comments off and on… I generally don’t care for the comments as they seem to be either praise for Denver, a monologue of what the poster knows (or thinks he knows) or just some random thought or question. I personally find it distracting and some of the posters I feel are … well, I won’t say kooky but we just don’t see eye to eye. Overall I have little desire to spend time reading through comments.

    I would like to continue reading the blog itself and trust Denver will be inspired where to go with it, even without feedback (opinion polling?) from the more outspoken readers.

  11. John the Baptist and Jesus had a bit of an overlap in their ministries. John’s group fasted while Jesus’ group did not. There were followers in each camp who couldn’t see eye to eye with the followers in the other camp. This is how those who were of Jesus would inherit the telestial kingdom, even when it looked like they were in the right camp, following the right One. They followed him, but didn’t understand His voice through the ministry of John the Baptist. They only heard from the Master what they wanted to hear, and thought they were His disciples, and weren’t to be counted among His humble followers.

    On the other hand, some were too rigid and preferred what they wanted to hear from John the Baptist with his sharp reproofs. They fed off of the faults of others instead of applying it to themselves and couldn’t recognize the Lamb of God when he came and instead hung around John too long.

    Contrary to what most people thought at the time, there was never any disparity between the Jesus and John. They both fully sustained and supported and loved each other, bearing witness of each other. John bore testimony of the Lamb of God; Jesus bore record that John was the greatest prophet born of women, a burning and shining lamp. John came mourning, and Jesus came piping and celebrating. Of course there were those, as Jesus said, that would not mourn with the camp of John’s that mourned. And, there were those who would not celebrate with the camp of Jesus who celebrated. But, there were also those depressed and depraved souls that mourned (but not to repentance) who clung to John, and those who were life-long club-hoppers who hung around Jesus’ celebrations as groupies. All of these groups missed the mark except the humble followers of both John and Jesus.

  12. …but it’s probably impossible that I know what I’m talking about. I haven’t written any books. And as opposed to “little desire”, I have much. Some might judge that I am over-passionate, perhaps out of control. Perhaps one could argue that feelings are better kept to oneself? Silence is golden? Should one be careful not to be in the camp that some people have mentioned drive their friends and family away from Denver’s otherwise uplifting blog? Should Denver politely ask them to be silent and keep their place on the sidelines? (He’s never asked me that, anyway) Do people think that because of what Denver has written, obviously he would be the kind of person to eventually say “Enough is enough” and impose sanctions on “out of control” comments? Or stop writing what he is writing because of it?

    Has the correlation department had such sway with us that we actually think that regulation is the right course of action now, and expect it? Martin Luther (let alone even greater individuals) would be ashamed of us.


  13. Well stated Brian. I thank you for your contributions. They have allowed for additional thought and subsequent growth. My hope is to continue to recognize the Lord’s voice and truth from whatever source it is presented. Sometimes I struggle to understand it all but will continue in the path until I know. JM

  14. I agree, please count another vote for continuing the blog from one who has been living in the lone and dreary wilderness far too long and couldn’t attend a home session.

    D&C 18:15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

    I can only speak for myself, but I feel my one soul is one that will be saved through your efforts. The evidence is building. And therefore, I would think that alone – one soul – would be worth keeping it going.

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