Remnant, part IX

The interplay between the latter-day gentiles and the remnant has been illustrated repeatedly in the Book of Mormon prophecies. We have seen Nephi’s prophecies of the event, and Christ’s affirmation and expansion on the event.

Gentiles would be offered the fullness and would reject it. Then the gentiles would take the gospel to the remnant who would receive it.  The remnant would then blossom with the gospel, ultimately establishing the New Jerusalem. When the New Jerusalem is built by the remnant, a few gentiles who had received the fullness would be able to “assist” in bringing again Zion. (3 Nephi 21: 23-24.)

We have at least a reasonable basis for fearing the gentiles rejected the fullness by not building the Temple in the “appointed time.” Inside this Temple, the fullness was to be revealed. (D&C 124: 28, 32.) Joseph Smith, who possessed the fullness, was taken 3 1/2 years after the revelation warning to act with speed in building the required Temple. When he died, the walls had not yet been completed to the second floor.
If we assume the worst, and the fullness was taken by the failure to complete the Temple in the permitted time, what then? Do the gentiles have no further use? Are the gentiles without a role in the latter-day events? That is hardly the case. The gentiles continue to occupy a central role in the latter-days, despite their failures.
The gentiles will bring the Gospel to the remnant. (1 Nephi 15: 13-14.)  The gentiles will be commissioned to preach, teach, baptize, lay on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, carry the Book of Mormon forward throughout the world, and preserve truths which will enable others to be saved. The gentiles will shoulder a prophetic burden they alone will be able to bear off in the last days.
When Moses was taken, along with the higher priesthood he possessed,  the Lord did not cease to recognize ancient Israel as His people. They were indeed His people, and the ones with whom He worked. He cared for, and watched over them, although we know in hindsight they were a hard hearted and foolish people who rejected something far greater than what they kept. If we rejected a fullness by our own failures, that does not mean we are cut off. We are the Lord’s people. We have a form of priesthood, and the right to organize and preach the Gospel throughout the world. We are being watched over. We are the means through which the Lord will bring to pass all of His latter-day plans.
You should also not worry that our collective limitations apply to individuals. That has never been the case. There have always been those who have risen up, shed their sins, repented and come to the Lord individually and been redeemed. That pattern appears throughout scriptures. The Book of Mormon is a product of one family, led by one man who repented in a generation scheduled for destruction. He led his family, preached the Gospel, had sons who accepted the invitation to receive from the fruit of the tree of life, and established a righteous branch of Israel. The Book of Mormon at its foundation is a testimony that the Lord is ever willing to receive any who will come to Him.
The gentiles are integral to the Lord’s work. We should never fear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is meaningless, irrelevant or without God’s watchful care. It is the means by which people are invited to come to Christ today.
In Eighteen Verses I describe the phenomena of building a new religion inside the original one established by revelation through Joseph Smith.  This new, false religion is designed to interfere with the Gospel, enshrine worship or adoration of a priestly class instead of the worship of Christ.  The Correlation Department’s effort to correlate teaching has created a new ambition to correlate power and control over everything. Part of that involves the adoration of a person, or as I explained it in Catholic terms – the cult of personality. This is a tried and true pattern for compromising the Gospel and rendering it a means for controlling and dominating socially, politically, religiously, and ultimately dictatorially.
The way the adversary works is always the same. It is not to destroy the work of God by annihilation, but to co-opt it and make it his. Satan wants to supplant God as the god of this earth. Therefore, anytime God has a work underway, Satan is eager to rush in and become the one the Lord’s work follows. The “arm of flesh” as opposed to the “Holy Ghost” is the difference between following in the single, strait, narrow path which alone will bring people back to God, and the altered and compromised path that will take you elsewhere.
I thought President Uchtdorf’s analogy about the airplane being only one degree off would become 500 miles separated from its target at the equator was particularly apt. (A Matter of a Few Degrees, May, 2008 Ensign.) This is how men and institutions fail. How can mortal man be vulnerable to err, and committees of mortal men are not? It is an almost universal truth that committees multiply errors, not decrease them. And who of you have ever sustained the Correlation Department?  
We are fools to believe that the same pattern of compromising the truth that resulted in the apostasy of the church established by Christ will not relentlessly press against the restoration of our day. I know there are quotes saying otherwise–that the church cannot be led astray– but I cannot believe them, try as I might. Joseph, Brigham, John Taylor, President George Cannon all said the exact opposite. Even when Wilford Woodruff was claiming he would “not lead the church astray” he did not mean what we have attributed to his words. He was saying, in effect: “Don’t worry, the Manifesto is a lie. We’re not really abandoning plural marriage.” The Manifesto did NOT stop plural marriage and it was not a revelation. He referred to it as “beating the Devil at his own game.” Meaning it was intended to mislead the public. It was a press release designed to stop the persecution of the church and the threatened legislation to dis-incorporate and confiscate the Temples. Criticism by the eastern press resulted in it becoming part of the Doctrine & Covenants. Plural marriages continued from then until after President Joseph F. Smith testified before the Senate in the seating of Senator Smoot in 1905. When the excommunications of the Apostles Taylor and Cowley in 1911 happened, it was not based on the Manifesto, but on the letter of President Joseph F. Smith actually ending the practice. The fundamentalist groups know this history and use it to persuade others that their current practices are justified. Their practices today are wrong, as I’ve discussed in Beloved Enos. But their use of history to trouble the unaware has been effective in many cases. [Now this is entirely a side issue and I’m not interested in pursuing it at this moment. I’m only mentioning it in the context of another thought.]
So ask yourself which is better: 
1.   Presume that no man can err who becomes a President of the LDS Church in direct contradiction to what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor and George Q. Cannon taught?
2.  Presume that without the ratification of the Holy Ghost bearing testimony to you that a matter is true, no man can be trusted and your salvation is based on what God alone tells you to be true?

If you believe the first, your religion is new, post-Correlation and will damn you. I do not intend to disassociate with you, and will gladly let you practice your faith if you will permit me to practice mine. If you believe the second, you are a Latter-day Saint who accepts accountability for what you believe and will work out your salvation with fear and trembling before God. You believe as I do, that Joseph was the means through which the Lord initiated a work for the salvation of mankind, and that work continues today. You believe in revelation and in God’s continuing hand with us still today. You accept such good things as come through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, rejoice in them, pay tithing to them, and are blessed by what things the church continues to preserve and practice. However, you are not deluded into worship of men.

The gentiles include both. The gentiles will be instrumental to the Lord’s work in the last days, whether they are Saints or Brethrenites. The remnant will come to the faith, receive the Gospel and become acquainted with their fathers through the Book of Mormon delivered by gentile hands. (2 Nephi 30: 3-5.) Without faithful gentile Saints, the work of the Father will not happen. Therefore, no matter the condition we find ourselves, we have an obligation to the Lord and to the prophets who went before, to so live as to bring these things to pass.

22 thoughts on “Remnant, part IX

  1. And the success of the correlation department is so thorough today that most members have no idea whatsoever regarding many of the points of our history which you mentioned such as Joseph F. Smith’s Second Manifesto and the sacrifice of Taylor and Cowley. An interesting illustration of all that you have been writing is summarized in the experience of one of my friends who was blessed to have a cosmic-wide, and grand wake-up experience. This friend mind you was a normal fully active Latter-day Saint who was busy raising a family and had no ideas about the problems in our history or doctrine, and knew nothing other than what had been taught at church.

    Following my friends awakening experience, a visitor from beyond the veil made this wonderful summarizing statement to my friend; “Shocking isn’t it.”

    Our job is awaken (awake and arise was the commandment to one who was asleep) and to make ourselves available to the Lord in the day that He begins to do His strange work. Those who remain asleep, will be useless to the Lord, as they will not have made much progress towards the Tree of Life. Remember that most of those who started on the path ended up in the Great and Spacious building (or lost in forbidden paths) and they pointed the finger of scorn at those pressing forward to the Tree.

    I choose to be awake and responsible to God for the things I have learned, and to invite others to Christ.

  2. 1 Nephi 11:36 ” And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the apride of the world; and it bfell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

    It seems like the twelve apostles are spoken of highly in this verse in the BOM. Perhaps that is where we mormons get our brethrenite mentality.

    I’m not sure what to think of this post. I would call myself a “brethrenite” in the sense that I have a deep admiration, appreciation and love for these men. Why? Because I have felt of their love for me. I don’t worship them but I pay very close attention to what they say because of the love that I feel FROM them. In meeting them personally, it is hard not to love them. Satan cannot love. For what it’s worth, I think there are some “Denverites” on this blog who do the same thing and don’t process all of this and pray about this for themselves. In all fairness, it’s a hard thing not to do.

    However, I do agree that we cannot follow the prophets “blindly” but we should have a confirmation of the Holy Ghost as to what they say, for ourselves. However, because of some of the love that I feel from these men it is hard to NOT feel the Holy Ghost. As John said “God is love.”

    I do not believe, and I think DS should make it clear, that God would allow the prophet to “lead the church astray.” God would strike them down before they do this. The church will become the kingdom of God, whether it is composed of whites, jews, gentiles, lamanites, latinos, etc. For this to happen God must be at the helm, and he must have someone He can trust to help lead us back to Him. In our day, president Monson.

    That’s my two cents.

  3. To follow onto the first comment above, perhaps the most surprising aspect of the sojourn of being introduced to the restoration gospel, learning the precepts, receiving the ordinances, undertaking both works and faith, and making our way towards the tree of life, is that at some point along the journey (if we are indeed truly moving forward and not just relaxing in a convenient meadow) we make the astonishing discovery that it is not a group effort which will save us. The “church” will NEVER save anyone. That is not its purpose, though it does serve the purpose of getting our feet on the path in the first place.

    This becomes a very singular and individual enterprise which is not what we anticipated when we first found the love of the congregational social Mormon experience. We further discover unexpected signposts along the way directing our prayers, our works, and our faith, into areas we had not anticipated. We find that the voice of the Holy Spirit will test and try us to see if we “will do all things whatsoever the Lord” will command us. (Abr 3:25) God will shortly find out if we know His voice or not?

    If we prove ourselves worthy of further light and knowledge, additional signposts may quickly overwhelm us, when suddenly and without warning, an angel of the Lord might show up, or a vision may be extended to us to further refine our souls. Many it seems, are unable to progress beyond this point, and sadly, turn away. I unfortunately have known some of these otherwise wonderful souls who could not go on following such an experience for one reason or another. I think of one dear friend who was unable to do what was asked by the Lord’s messenger and turned away all further light.

    Some souls find it within themselves to continue onward through whatever trials and mists arise and they seek the Father and the Son no matter the cost. At this point in their personal journey, they are typically living in a much different world than their fellow worshipers, and sometimes strain at the seeming spiritual childishness, rudeness, and ignorance with which they are surrounded. Nephi aptly described these things in his spiritual quest. They do not think of themselves as any better than anyone else, they simply see the world through new eyes.

    Eventually though, the longed for day arrives when least expected, and the lonely candidate finds herself or himself kneeling at or lying at the feet of the Master, completely “undone” at what is unfolding before them. As moments pass and the person is allowed to feel all of the emotions which are exploding inside of them, and bask in the glory with which they are surrounded, and to gain some courage that they can gather themselves together, then a hand is extended and they are lifted to arise from the floor (and although shaking inside as though they might come apart), a calmness then washes over them as that most masculine baritone voice calms their fears and welcomes them into a new life with an embrace of fellowship not to be forgotten.

    Other sacred exchanges might occur, and other even more glorious introductions might follow, and then your world is ever after changed.

    This did not happen in the group setting of a sacrament meeting, or an administration meeting, nor during General Conference. This happens in our private intimate lives as we make the Savior the singular focus of our lives. This is the point I was making at the beginning of these words. We must decide that we as individuals are going to attain to the promise extended by the Lord to all of us. Our spouse cannot drag us there, our home teachers cannot take us there, nor can our bishop, or an apostle, or even the president of the church. This is a journey for YOU and YOU alone.

  4. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “… for if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved of in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people; (DHC 1:316, TPJS, p. 18

  5. It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)

    Brigham Young taught:
    There is nothing that would so soon weaken my hope and discourage me as to see this people in full fellowship with the world, and receive no more persecution from them because they are one with them. In such an event, we might bid farewell to the Holy Priesthood with all its blessings, privileges and aids to exaltations, principalities and powers in the eternities of the Gods. (JD 10:32)

    Young also stated,”The First Presidency have of right a great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray.” (JD 6:100)

    George Q. Cannon taught:

    Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).

  6. I wanted to include the quotes listed above to show that this isn’t about following Denver, but following the Lord. I’ve been looking at Denver’s reasoning throughout and he hasn’t attacked a single leader of the Church. I’m not defending him, he doesn’t need that from anyone anyway.

    This is about us waking up and believing what scripture is telling us. The Lord Himself in 3 Nephi talks in depth about this. We’ve been the ones missing the boat. This isn’t about blaming the leaders, but accepting responsibility for our own salvation. And not pinning our hopes on 15 men most of us have never talked to at any great length. President Monson will NOT be coming to my door to tell me what job to take, or who I should marry. That has always meant to be between me and the Lord, with no one else in between. That’s what revelation is all about. I’m tired of coasting on Auto Pilot thinking all is well in Zion. I love going to Church and partaking of the Sacrament and attending the Temple. I pray for and sustain my leaders. But I will not look to them to get me home. That is between me and my Savior. He is the only one that can get me there.

  7. Brigham Young
    Journal of Discourses 19: 98

    Our motive is to make every man and woman to know just as much as we do; this is the plan of the Gospel, and this is what I would like to do. I would like all the Latter-day Saints to come up to this standard, and know as much as I do, and then just as much more as they can learn, and if they can get ahead of me, all right. I can then have the privilege of following after them. If they keep up close to me, so that they will understand as I do the workings of the Spirit, they will do a good deal better than they do now. But the beauty and excellency of the wisdom that God has revealed to us is to fill everybody with wisdom, bringing them up to the highest standard of knowledge and wisdom, purifying us and preparing us to enter into the highest state of glory, knowledge and power, that we may become fit associates of the Gods and be prepared to dwell with them. This I say is the beauty and glory of the great knowledge that God has revealed unto the Latter-day Saints. You may ask in what particular? In every particular. For the knowledge men possess of every science, every art, every study there is, and every branch of mechanism known to men, they are indebted to the Lord. True men may have been taught it by his fellow man and he may have discovered much himself; but all originated with God our Heavenly Father, through his agents to the children of men. The faith and philosophy of our religion comprehends all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and I wish I was able to say a little better than I am, endures all things. But we must endure all things that we cannot help, enduring patiently until we are counted worthy to be free.

  8. Anonymous 7:23 PM.

    Interesting that you choose number 1 in the two choices that Denver gave in his blog. But it is more interesting that you asked Denver to make it clear that the president couldn’t lead us astray when in fact, that is exactly what he is saying in choice number 1; which he says is a way of thinking that will damn you. So don’t count on Denver making any such statement. Denver is already clear. I’m not trying to be hard on you. I think many of us have had to shed our correlation-conditioned skins, which have been growing for many year without knowing it. Denver wrote this great post about the function, blessing and responsibility the church has; we are not to abandon it or forsake her blessings; but it is clear Denver is exhorting us to not rely on the arm of flesh, no matter who it is, because they can indeed lead us astray which history has been shown over and over again.

  9. I want to say ‘thank you’ Denver for clearing away some of the cobwebs concerning the state of the Church that we are associated with. I felt for the first time in a long time that I understood better the Lord’s thinking about the whole situation. Mostly what was written – for me at least – cleared away some of the webs that were clouding the future role and had confirmed that the Lord is still in control – a thought that I had been given a short while ago when I went to Him with a question of a future action – and this confirmed what I was told then. I am convinced that if we follow His instruction that He gives us personally, and hold our peace – we can be a blessing to one another and perhaps to those around us that are caught in their firm belief that ‘all is well because we have a Prophet who will tell us what to do. I hear that frequently from our members. I am not making much sense, but thank you for this blog – There is still a way to do a work HIS WAY among the people – I think all are not lost who appear so ‘lost’for now.


  10. I have been taken back by much I’ve read, seen and pondered lately. Things the Lord has whispered to me in sacred places and times. I have searched the scriptures diligently and found difficulty reconciled Isaiah’s view of Ephraim with conventional beliefs in the Church. I am in awe of the subtle deception used by Satan. In my traditional thinking, (having grown up in the Church but not so much Gospel until my mission) I felt it was easy to identify my adversaries. As you contemplate all that’s been discussed, the obvious critics are not the only ones we have to watch out for. Perhaps the greatest danger we face is from well intentioned individuals who are sincere but misguided. The most subtle dangers may lie in Church scholars who willing engage in sophistry and ignore the truth because that’s how you demonstrate your devotion to the Church and Brethren. They are not evil people nor do they intentionally seek to harm or mislead. It really comes down to the oldest of objectives, the pursuit of control in the name of conformity. At the end of the day it will always come down to discipleship as opposed to membership. Our real danger has always been the risk we have entered into Melchizedek covenants but live the Aaronic law. In essence, seeking vicarious representation before the Lord when the Melchizedek covenants authorize us to represent ourselves before the Lord at the veil. When we fail to take this seriously it is in effect the same as telling Moses (or any other prophet) “You go ahead and then come back and tell me what the Lord said”. Like Israel, we are not allowed into the rest of the Lord.

    With regard to the “Denverite” comment, your concern is legitimate. I and my family have been greatly blessed by Denver’s writing, analysis and instruction. But I have always stressed to my family (and myself) the Lord’s admonition in D&C 1 to never trust in the arm of flesh, including myself, Denver or anyone else. Others can point a certain direction but only the individual can pass through the veil through the exercise of their own agency.

    Thanks for all the thoughtful testimony and discourse. I greatly appreciate it and feel edified by it.


  11. Dan: That quote from Jos. Fielding Smith was interesting. That 20 year period would range from 1918-1938. His father, JFS died, in 1918, and Heber J. Grant had served during all those next 20 years. What was going on at that time that he was so concerned? Or was it just a family thing, that no one else could compare to his father:-).

  12. Upon rereading Wilford Woodruff’s not lead astray comment in the back of the D&C, it seems clear that he is simply overemphasizing the doctrine in D&C 121 where the Lord will take away Priesthood authority and power from any man overstepping his bounds. It is ambiguous language seen from our standpoint in history, but we can’t leave out that possibility that he was simply restating in his own words the “Amen to the Priesthood” doctrine in order to emphasize he had no authority or power in the Manifesto, condescending to beat the devil at his own game.


    To the Saints Wilford Woodruff was talking to, guided by the Spirit as he expected them to be, they would’ve immediately been able to see there was no power in the Manifesto, and the Lord had “removed” the mantle of the Prophet that Wilford Woodruff had so Wilford could write a non-authoritative public dissuasion. Then, the mantle was put back on for other purposes that were truly prophetic. Can we see this?

  13. frode said: “Perhaps the greatest danger we face is from well intentioned individuals who are sincere but misguided.”

    I suspect that could be the case. I really don’t see this all that much where I live in our local ward, etc here. But I, like some others here, participate in a forum that is constituted of all LDS.

    There I have encountered (along with some very fine folks) those that I might refer to as the “spirit quenchers.” You know the Uber-Orthodox, or the New Inquisition. Their answer to everything they might not have heard before at church is, “That can’t be true.” Their theme song is “The Brethren will never lead us astray.”

    Yes, I realize that apostates are attracted to just such a forum to preach their stuff, and so there sometimes has to be someone who will step in; but in the process the baby is definitely being thrown out with the bath water.

    I’m sure David Christensen could say, “Amen,” for he is an occasional target of the Uber-Orthodox, as is Brother Snuffer, though he is not a member there, unless he is in disguise:-).

    Interesting questions and thoughts get asked but then the spirit quenchers show up in force. We’ve even had a few who would call up Church headquarters to say that so-and-so posted such-and-such on the **** forum. It’s amazing: Like the brethren have nothing better to do with their time, than deal with such issues?

  14. Well said, AnonymousNV.

    Also, of course the Lord will never allow the President to lead Saints astray, because Saints are those who have received the Holy Ghost. The Lord will never confirm by the power of the Holy Ghost things He can’t confirm. That safeguard has always been in place against misguided or erring Church Presidents or Prophets of old, hasn’t it?

    If we expect the Lord to give us Prophets as an insurance policy against making mistakes, then of course we would expect Him to make good on His insurance policy, but the Lord doesn’t work that way, in my opinion.

    Also, why even have a procedure to remove a Church President from office at all in the D&C if the Lord will do it by killing them every time?

  15. It is very easy to be lead astray by the Prophet’s words, IF we don’t have the Spirit, & I believe most all members in the Church today are being lead astray by the Prophet, because they don’t have the Spirit & thus they interpret his words incorrectly which leads them to error & to do evil.

    Those with the Spirit are being guided by the same Prophet to purify their lives & earn Exaltation because they can interpret what he is really saying.

    In response to the mention of the manifesto or Joseph F. Smith putting a stop to plural marriage, I’m sure it was a most exultant day for the righteous when the practice was stopped & their prayers were finally answered & they didn’t have to live plural marriage anymore.

    I’m sure they were praying day & night for deliverance from that most terrible trial.

    It was one of the worst things any righteous man could ever conceive of having to do & one of the worst things a wife could ever have to endure. And children watching were blessed with great peace that they wouldn’t have to do the same as they saw their parents have to do & endure.

    God finally heard the prayers of the righteous.

    Enough members had finally repented & awakened & learned enough so the great trial was taken away.

  16. Denver, if the fullness with it’s accompaning sealing power left the church collectively in 1841… how come Joseph felt something was going to happen, that he wouldn’t be around too much longer and still gave the endowment before the temple was finished? Orson Hydge stated: “He conducted us through every ordinance of the holy priesthood…” and he states Joseph said: “if they kill me, you have got ALL the keys and all the ordinances, and you can confer them upon others…” (mill star 5:104)? How come he also conferred the 2nd anointing, and did the first temple marriage with Emma soon after? I also read that between 1841-1845 the saints built 5 MASONIC LODGES! Why were so many “saints” interested in becoming master masons (over 1300 members including Joseph)? We could build 5 lodges, but not one super important temple to endow the people with a true endowment power? Did Joseph know the fullness was turned against us during this time and was just trying to give us rituals based of masonry mixed with some of the personal events he went thru to show us how to do the same on our own? Did Brigham, Taylor, Richards, BF Johnson and all the others he passed on temporary sealing power to maintain it after that time frame? You have to give us more info… please :)

  17. It really doesn’t matter if we have the sealing power anymore or not.

    ‘True Love’ for our spouse & keeping our covenants to them, no matter what, is the power that really binds us to our spouse & our children for eternity, whether we are in this Church or some other Church or no Church at all.

    In the millenium, all the people of the earth who were truly faithful to their spouse & marriage vows will receive the ordinance of being sealed for eternity to their spouse & children if they didn’t have the chance to be sealed during their lifetime.

    The only thing that we really need to focus on is keeping our covenants to love & serve our spouse with an Unconditional True Everlasting Love, (Charity) no matter what.

    ‘It shall be well with us at the last day’ if we can just do this one thing.

  18. 10:37 poster: Doesn’t really matter? That’s the whole point of this blog and Denvers books… that we’ve lost it, but we can still individually get it back now! Please read the past 2 wks of blogs.

Comments are closed.