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This is the third of a multi-part series where Denver addresses how many of the things found in nature point to Christ.
Question: “You addressed this in your lectures. Let’s say for argument’s sake I believed you. What can or should a university student do? I can’t drop out because I would have to immediately have to pay back student loans. Do I just keep attending school and trust that everything works out? Or let’s say I’m in high school. Would you recommend young people even go to college? Should young people who want to be lawyers just quash their dreams because everything is going to hell? That’s my general problem with gloom and doom prophecy, it stagnates individual growth and development. People isolate themselves from the rest of the world, spend a bunch of money on guns and emergency supplies, and generally waste their lives living in fear. Is there a balanced approach to watching out for that dastardly thief in the night?”
Answer: I would say, finish high school. I would say, go to law school. One of the first things on the agenda that Christ will destroy–it’s not the lawyers, it’s the bankers and the insurance companies. They’re all evil. [Audience laughter.] Your student loans won’t need to be repaid because there will be nothing left of the institutions who hope to collect on them. You don’t live your life in contemplation of the fearful return of the Lord. You live your life in a grateful celebration for everything God has done and given to us.
As I was flying here, we were taking off just as the first rays of the sun were creeping up in the east, and there was this brilliant scarlet ribbon on the horizon. My wife pointed it out to me. (I was sitting in an aisle and the only thing I got to see was the cart they bring with treats.) As I looked across at the sunrise, it was spectacular.
Where I live in Utah we have this Wasatch Front. These are jagged granite cliffs that go upward. The top of one of the ski resorts is 11,000 feet. We live at about 4,000 feet. When the sun sets as you are in the valley, you see the sun go down in the west but in the east, on the mountains, you see the sunlight creep up, and creep up the mountain until finally just the very top peaks remain with light. What happens is that the light, as it goes up the mountain in its nightly retreat, because of the refraction of the atmosphere it tends to shift to the blue and to the purple. Every night those mountains–it’s particularly spectacular when there’s snow up there because the hues of the sunlight refraction become very colorful up there.
I happen to like impressionist art, and my favorite impressionist is Monet. We have a couple of Monet–well, they are forgeries. They were given to me as a fee, we didn’t have to pay for them. They are actual Monet paintings right down to the brush strokes reproduced, and they’re beautiful.
Every night as the sun sets, God does something on the mountains that is never the same, always beautiful, and greater in beauty and splendor than anything Monet ever put on canvas.
We ought to love life, and we ought to love one another, and we ought to pursue our education. We shouldn’t bunker down with guns and ammo, fearfully waiting for a direful end to things. Of all people, Christians should have the most hope, the most optimism, the most vitality, and greatest amount of joy in life. We ought to celebrate every day.
Question: “Having studied evolutionary biology in college, I came to appreciate the vast amounts of evidence for this scientific theory.” [I will pause there. Read Darwin’s Black Box.] Recent anthropological data, Gobekli Tepe, is pushing the origins of civilization far beyond 4,000 B.C. It is an increasingly tenuous position to accept a strictly literal interpretation of Genesis in regards to creation and chronology, especially among the younger millennial generation that I am a part of. Having also had a few mystical experiences that lead me to accept Jesus as Lord, I feel somewhat torn. Whatever I do it seems like I’m rejecting truth. Whether I consider ignoring physical scientific evidence or effectively dismissing parts of the Bible, both are not satisfying solutions to me. Is there a way to make secular data fit into the Christians metaphysics?”
Answer: Yes, there is. I’m going to go ahead and answer this fellow, for what it’s worth. The problem with biblical literalism is not necessarily that what is in the Bible is untrue but it may be that what is in the Bible is speaking using a vernacular that mankind is unacquainted with. For example, the work of the creation is referred to generally as “a day”. There is no reason to believe that calling it a day in the language of scripture has reference to anything other than a discrete event. It would be more accurate to say that there were labors that were performed during the incremental progression of the creation which took however long, and when the labor was completed then that labor was called “a day”. There is nothing to suggest that the labor of the first day was exactly the same amount of time as the labor of the second day, nor is there anything to suggest that the labor of the third day was equal in time to either the first or the second, and so on.
How many eons of time were required in order for God, through the process that we see in nature, to form the earth, was the first day. However long it took, through seismic, volcanic, and other activities to cause the dry land to appear was labor that took however long it took.
In the vernacular of scripture events above are reckoned by the movement of the earth. The earth is moving in two ways. It is circling the sun on a tilt. Twice a year that tilt aligns so that we have an equinox, which means that there’s exactly twelve hours of sunlight and twelve hours of darkness on that one day, twice a year. Then there are solstices, when in the north the days are the longest because it’s leaning towards the sun, and when it gets to the other side it’s leaning away, and at that moment the nights are very long because in the north you’re leaning away from the sun. As it makes this movement in one direction it’s also wobbling at the poles.
The earth is not perfectly stable on its axis. It wobbles. It takes 25,900 years roughly for it to complete one circle at the pole. In the ancient vernacular, because of that wobble we have a changing pole star. It happens at this moment to be Polaris, but if you go back several thousand years we have a different pole star. That pole star changes.
We also have, around the ecliptic, a group of constellations that everyone on earth can see. It doesn’t matter if you’re in the southern hemisphere or if you’re in the northern hemisphere. There are a group of constellations everyone on earth can continually see. There are twelve of them. All twelve of them had a story behind them in the beginning. All twelve of them have symbols that represent Christ. That’s for another day.
When the pole star changes, which happens about seven times every 25,900 years, anciently that change was called “A New Heaven”. Likewise there is a different constellation that appears at sunrise on the vernal equinox, and that constellation tells you what age you’re in. Star fields overlap and sometimes there are gaps. Right now we are in an overlap between–Christ said, “I will make you fishers of men,” and the constellation for that age was and still is Pisces: two fish. One fish caught in the net is endlessly circling the equator, but another fish, and it’s much smaller, this other fish is headed to the north, where you will find God.
That constellation is going to be replaced by the One who is coming. We call him Aquarius. We also call him The Waterman. He is pouring out; a new age will come. If you go back far enough, what he is pouring out is two streams. One stream is water, which gives life, and one stream is fire. He who is coming in the great day of the Lord is coming for “the great (the water) and dreadful (the fire) day of the Lord”, to pour something out. Well, it just so happens that the star fields of these two overlap. If you date the return of the Lord by the star field of Aquarius at its earliest star, then the first sign of the times of refreshing would have been about in the 1840s, when Joseph Smith was saying that Christ appeared to him and gave him a message to preach. We have not yet fully exited the star field of Pisces.
Now, all of that is to make this comment: When there’s a new pole star that’s called a New Heaven. When there’s a new constellation on the horizon at the vernal equinox, that’s called a New Earth. There will be a New Heaven and there will be a New Earth when Christ returns. All of these are given, as Christ said in Genesis 1:14, for signs and for seasons, and everything testifies of Him.
There’s a lot of scientific proof to challenge traditional interpretations, but there’s a lot of material in the Bible that is simply misunderstood in traditions. This earth is pretty old, and how long it existed before it was considered sufficiently complete for man to occupy is not to be measured in days, it’s to be measured in epics of time referred to generically as a day, meaning a period, meaning an agenda.
Stephanie: Alright. This one came in this morning.
Question: “Why doesn’t God talk about science in Scriptures? I have learned about symbolic things in my chemistry, microbiology, and astronomy classes that denote there is a God, but I’ve always wondered why the laws of nature and scientific ideas are never discussed.”
Answer: So, we’re gonna break this one up. First thing I would say is, I don’t know, I tend to think that science is God. Now I know scientists don’t think that, and they’re looking for ways to disconnect science and God. But I happen to believe that if there was no God, there would be no science, and they wouldn’t have jobs. And so, to me, there is no separate… There is literally no separation. So, the fact that this person is finding God in microbiology and chemistry and astronomy is no surprise.
The second thing I would say is I am finding science in human growth and development. I am finding sci… Did I say “science” or “God”?
Denver: You said science, but you meant God.
Stephanie: Oh, no, I’m not finding science. Well, I might be finding that too, but that’s not what I meant. I am finding God in human growth and development. I am finding God in counseling theories and practices. I am finding God in substance abuse principles. I am finding God in every textbook I am currently engaged in. So, I would say, much like Jeff said earlier, God is everywhere. And the fact that we should never limit our search for God (or even our presumption of finding Him) to Scripture—which is a wonderful place to find Him—but if I can find Him in substance abuse practices and principles, you can certainly find him in astronomy and microbiology. And then you—
Denver: Yeah. But all things bear testimony of Christ—all things. Whether they are on the earth or under the earth or in the earth or above the earth, all things bear testimony of Christ. The Scriptures say so. You think about the caterpillar that’s a pest, that’s something to wreck your garden, that goes into a cocoon—and then it comes out of the cocoon, and it’s now something that helps fertilize and pollinate. And it leaves its grubby, earthly confines to become airborne and colorful and a contributor to life and to your gardening. It’s the same animal. And tell me that isn’t a testimony of Christ. All things bear testimony of Him, and science simply ratifies that.
The question is, Do you run any risks by studying that you can just as easily study your way out of belief as you can study your way into belief.
The way that I think that works is… Everyone wants to understand, because of how proximate—how close—Joseph Smith is, everyone wants to understand how Joseph Smith did it. So, if we think we can figure out how Joseph Smith did it, then presumably that will equip us to understand or put it into context. But most people who are studying to figure out how Joseph Smith did it are only interested in debunking it. I want to know how he pulled this off because I’m a little skeptical that what he pulled off is actually genuine, and maybe if I can understand how Joseph Smith pulled that off, then I can understand how Jesus pulled it off. Then I can understand how Moses pulled it off. Then I can put it all to rest because I needn’t worry about it. Or, I want to understand how Joseph Smith pulled it off so I can pull it off, and when I get that and I figure it out, and I try it, and it doesn’t work for me, then I can say Joseph made it up because it didn’t work for me. I mean, there are a lot of pitfalls along the course of study.
The first and primary question you have to ask is… Take a look around this world and, and ask yourself if—in this world—it makes sense to you that there is no Creator. Does it make sense to you that everything that’s going on here simply is a haphazard accident? That there is no creation; there’s no creator; there’s no divine plan; there’s nothing here that operates on any other basis than random chance? If you reach the conclusion that everything that’s going on here could possibly be by random chance, then read Darwin’s Black Box. There’s a little over 200 different things that have to line up perfectly in order for your blood to clot. If any one of those 200 things don’t happen simultaneously—it’s a little over 200—if any one of those don’t happen simultaneously, you will die. For some of those, if you get a cut and they’re not present, you’ll bleed out. You’ll simply die because you will exsanguinate. For others of those, if you get a cut, your entire blood system will turn solid, and you will die because clotting knows no end. Darwin’s Black Box makes the argument that it is evolutionarily impossible for trial and error to solve the problem of blood clotting because everyone of the steps that are required, if nature simply experiments with it, kills the organism. And that ends that. You don’t know that you are going to succeed until you’ve lined them all up, and you’ve made them all work. It is an interesting book, Darwin’s Black Box. In essence, it’s saying that the evolutionists require more faith really than do people that believe in God because the theory upon which they base their notion requires far too many things to occur by trial and error than is conceivably possible.
Well, if there is a creation, then there is a Creator. If there is a Creator, then the question is… I assume all of you have had a father or a grandfather—someone that you respected—a mother or a grandmother, an aunt or an uncle that over the course of a lifetime developed skills and talents and humor and character—someone that you admire. And then they pass on. How profligate a venture is it to create someone that you—a creation that you view as noble, as worthy, as admirable, as interesting, as fascinating; some person that you love. Take that, and just obliterate it. God, who can make such a creation, surely doesn’t waste a creation. He’s not burning the library at Alexandria every day by those who pass on. God had to have a purpose behind it all. I don’t know how many of you have had a friend or a loved one or a family member who passed on who, subsequent to their death, appeared to you, had a conversation with you, in a dream, in a thought. I can recall going to my father’s funeral, and his casket with his body was in the front of the little chapel we were in, but his presence was not there. That may have been the hull he occupied while he was living and breathing, but I had no sense at all that my father was there. I did have a sense that he was present, but he wasn’t in the coffin. He was elsewhere in the room. I couldn’t see him, but I could have pointed to him, and said, He’s here. I fact, I made a few remarks at my fathers funeral, and I largely directed them at him.
Nature testifies over and over again; it doesn’t matter when the sun goes down, there’s going to be another dawn. It doesn’t matter when all the leaves fall off the deciduous trees in the fall, there’s going to come a spring. There’s going to be a renewal of life. There are all kinds of animals in nature that go through this really loathsome, disgusting, wretched existence, and then they transform. And where they were a pest before, now they are bright, and they’re colorful, and they fly, and they pollinate. Butterflies help produce the very kinds of things that their larvae stage destroyed. These are signs. These are testimonies. Just like the transformation of the caterpillar into the butterfly—the pest into the thing of beauty; the thing that ate the vegetables that you were trying to grow into the thing that helps pollinate the things that you want to grow—that’s the plan for all of us. So, when you study the scriptures, the objective should not be, “Can I trust the text? Can I evaluate the text? Can I use a form of criticism against the text in order to weigh, dismiss, belittle, judge?” Take all that you know about nature, take all that you know about this world and the majesty of it all. Take all that you know that informs you that there is hope, there is joy, there is love. Why do you love your children? Why do your children love you? These kinds of things exist. They’re real. They’re tangible, and they’re important. And they are part of what God did when He created this world. Keep that in mind when you’re studying and search the scriptures to try and help inform you how you can better appreciate, how you can better enjoy, how you can better love, how you can better have hope. What do they have to say that can bring you closer to God? Not, can I find a way to dismiss something that Joseph said or did? As soon as Joseph was gone off the scene, people that envied the position that he occupied took over custody of everything, including the documents, and what we got as a consequence of that is a legacy that allowed a trillion dollar empire to be constructed. Religion should require our sacrifice. It should not be here to benefit us. We should have to give, not get. And in the giving of ourselves, what we get is in the interior; it’s in the heart. It’s the things of enduring beauty and value. If your study takes you away from an appreciation of the love, the charity, the things that matter most, reorient your study.
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The foregoing excerpts are taken from:
- Denver’s Christian Reformation Lecture Series, Talk #3 given in Atlanta, Georgia on November 16, 2017
- Denver & Stephanie’s Youth Q&A session at the Heavens are Open Conference in Hurricane, UT on March 22, 2020
- Denver’s remarks given at the Book of Mormon Covenant Conference in Columbia, SC on January 13, 2019