Zion was intended to be built in the center of the last part of Lamanite land available in 1831. The fact that the gentiles were expelled does not mean the site for building Zion was automatically changed. The Lord reiterated Zion wasn’t changed. The gentile children may be scattered, but the site would remain. More importantly, the Lamanite children were being scattered as well. The picture was changing on both sides of the line separating “Jew from gentile” in the years following the 1831 revelation.
By 1838 the conflict between Mormons and Missourians had escalated to the point that it was called the “Mormon War.” The election battle at Gallatin on August 6, 1838 is at one end, and Joseph Smith’s surrender at Far West in November, 1838 at the other.
Missouri was lost to the Saints. The natives voted to expel them, and Governor Lilburn Boggs signed the Extermination Order on October 27, 1838 requiring Mormons to be exterminated or driven from the State of Missouri; a curious piece of Americana that was not rescinded until some 137 years later on June 25, 1976 by Missouri Governor Christopher Bond.
Joseph spent the winter of 1838-39 in the Liberty Jail, and in March, 1839 wrote a letter from which we have taken three sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 121, 122 and 123. The possibility of building in Missouri was lost, at least for the time.
The Saints moved to Commerce, renamed it Nauvoo, and started a new city. This one was also identified not only as “Zion” but as the “cornerstone of Zion.” (D&C 124: 2.) So, although “Zion” was not to be moved, by 1841 the “cornerstone of Zion” was now in Nauvoo. This is not a contradiction. Zion has never been moved. But the Lamanites were moving, the Saints were moving, and the opportunity to locate it in the places where it could have been constructed earlier were no longer relevant.
We read the words of Section 101 to mean that the location remains in Independence, Jackson County. It is possible, however, there is another meaning. That is, the location hasn’t changed, although temporary opportunities existed earlier. It wasn’t built earlier, and will be built, but when it is built, it will be at the place always prophesied for its construction. Zion was to be located on the top of the high mountains. (Isa. 40: 9.) Jackson County has no mountains, no mountain range, no possibility of fulfilling the promised environs for establishing Zion. (Isa. 2: 3.) Make the descriptions “spiritual” if you want, but a mountain setting is clearly required for the prophesied Zion. (Psalms 133: 3; Isa. 52: 7; Joel 3: 17; Micah 4: 2; 2 Ne. 12: 3; D&C 49: 25; among others.)
Zion was always intended to be built upon the mountain top. (Isa. 30: 17.) Even a valley location in Salt Lake cannot answer to the description given in prophecy. A valley floor is not the “top of the mountain” upon which the beacon will be set. Zion has never been moved. Nor will it. In the same revelation which confirms Zion will not be moved, the Lord spoke of the Saints profaning the land earlier identified as Zion. “For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified. Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances. They were slow to hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; therefore, the Lord their God is slow to hearken unto their prayers, to answer them in the day of their trouble.” (D&C 101: 5-7.)
If jarring and contending can pollute Zion, are we ready for it now? If envy and strife will make it unacceptable, how prepared are we to gather to Zion now? If lustful and covetous desires will make it unfit for an inheritance, are we above those weaknesses now? So, how soon ought we expect the establishment of Zion to get underway?
All of this is an aside to the subject of the remnant. But it is an important aside. The remnant will build the city of Zion. In 1830, when the earlier inhabitants were relocated to the area immediately adjacent to Jackson County, had the city been built it would have been there. It wasn’t time. It also wasn’t the place. So, although the future of that place may be glorious at some point, the city of Zion to be built by the remnant, would necessarily be built where the remnant is located. Their location, if it answers to the description of prophecy, would be mountainous, in the top of the mountains, and a suitable place for refuge during a time of upheaval. We’ll follow the events of the 1840’s with that in mind.
I appreciate your blog and your insights but I definitely disagree with your assessment on this. Brigham Young said “Joseph, the Prophet, told me that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri. When Adam was driven out he went to the place we now call Adam-Ondi-Ahman, Daviess County, Missouri. There he built an altar an offered sacrifices.” (Wilford Woodruff: History of His LIfe and Labors, p. 481.) The Lord does everything in a great chiasm. The first shall be last and the last first in all that he does (see D&C 29:30). The first capital of the earth was the Garden of Eden. The last capital of the earth (Zion, the New Jerusalem) will also be where the Garden of Eden was. When the earth was created, the land masses were all one. These will be brought together again. (D&C 133:24) The people spoke the pure Adamic language at the first part of this earth and that will be brought back again during the Millennium (see Zeph. 3:9). I could go on and on but suffice it to say this is the pattern that the Lord uses. I really don’t see the center place of Zion changing. It will be in Jackson County where the Garden of Eden was. Now granted, eventually Zion will go out and fill the whole earth, but I don’t see the center place changing.
Denver is right. The technicalities of the terms will all work out according to “center place” and Garden of Eden redemption, etc.
When watching “Mountain of the Lord” the Holy Ghost confirms that the “tops of the mountains” prophesy at the end of the movie is correct in its identifying the word “Utah” as the connecting word for the mountains that Isaiah is speaking of, yet the Holy Ghost DOES NOT confirm that the Salt Lake Temple fulfills the prophesy, nor the Winter Olympics in 2002 as bringing all nations to Zion.
I have always wondered why the Holy Ghost would NEVER confirm this, and I wanted desperately for Him to, but He never would. Test it for yourselves. He confirms every small piece of truth that our interpretations have correct, but always rejects those portions we have wrong. TEST IT FOR YOURSELVES.
It means God supports us in trying to figure these things out and apply them to ourselves, but He will only support it fully when we get every point EXACTLY RIGHT. We are not so good as to have it all figured out yet.
The Holy Ghost supports Denver’s analysis, and all prophesy will fall into its proper place. We have neglected Isaiah in the favor of the D&C out of context to our peril. We have been the ones being non-inclusive of prophesy. Isaiah must somehow harmonize with the D&C and it will. Give Denver a chance.
It is obvious Brigham Young knew we failed with Salt Lake, that is why he tried with Saint George, but in one of the last speeches of his life at the St. George dedication, he reiterated our utter failure. It is one of his most scathing denunciations of the Saints, saying we will go to hell, at a “joyous” temple dedication no less. Will we hear the words of Brigham concerning this subject? His later remarks supersede all his previous hopes. He was pessimistic, as was Heber Kimball with his “test” prophesy. Are we not in a test now, even if this might not be Heber’s test? Think about it. Maybe it is.
Here is where I think we may get fixed in our minds incorrectly: when we think center place, we assume in the middle between the East Coast and the West Coast, and with Independence, Missouri, geography bears us out in this point pretty well.
But, there is no reason to stick with this, because center could be between the Northern and Southern borders of the Garden of Eden.
Adam left the Garden and went towards the East because behind him, at the East end of the Garden, was placed the flaming sword.
If Adam-ondi-Ahman was generally to the East of the Garden of Eden, then everything to the West of Adam-ondi-Ahman, including the Rocky Mountains, could be within the bounds of the Garden of Eden.
We reject this because it is now desert, and not fruitful like Missouri, but we read the desert shall blossom as the rose and the mountains be made low as it was originally a valley.
And, to the West of the Garden was found much gold…read the following understanding that a recitation of the sacred directions begins with the West, then North, then East, then South (the covenant location for man):
Moses 3:10-14
10 And I, the Lord God, caused a river to go out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 And I, the Lord God, called the name of the first Pison, and it compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where I, the Lord God, created much gold; [WEST]
12 And the gold of that land was good, and there was bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river was called Gihon; the same that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. [NORTH]
14 And the name of the third river was Hiddekel; that which goeth toward the east of Assyria. [EAST] And the fourth river was the Euphrates. [SOUTH[
That would fit with California being to the West of the Garden of Eden.
Therefore, Independence may’ve been “a” temple spot for the Eastern entrance to the Garden, but the center-center place was foreseen by Isaiah instead as ultimately being built, like the same thing going on with 116 pages in the first attempt, but we get 1st and 2nd Nephi instead which really was the original plan to begin with. The Lord makes distractions for the wicked.
So I guess when we see some places wasted and a remnant remaining as in DC 101: “They that REMAIN, and are pure in heart, shall return, and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy, TO BUILD UP THE WASTE PLACES of Zion”, and a great mountain arise in Jackson County for a new beacon to be set on a mountain, then we’ll see the true Zion or the headquarters fully established.
So a good question and concern: How do we be part of a remnant whose lives are saved, while these placings are wasted or the nations made low so God can come and establish His true government on earth? How do we live NOW so that we can prepare for that great work? How do we live NOW to enjoy the rights, privledges and blessings that great prophets past enjoyed, that most of the church does not understand or seek? How can we receive exaltation upon exaltation when we have lost so much, treated lightly the truths and ways we have received? How can I excercise the right to choose to live all of the gospel in our day?
On a trip to take the family through the Nauvoo Temple open house, we also had the privilege of going to Adam Ondi Ahman and Far West. When my wife and I entered the Far West temple lot enclosure, we were inside a “dedicated temple”; we just could not see it with out temporal eyes. We both independently wandered the site and then rejoined and looked at each other and said the same thing. It was one of those surreal experiences in life. Indeed, (the scattered from) all nations will flow to the Everlasting Hills when the judgments of God are poured out without measure upon all nations (starting first in Utah). It will be one of the few locations on the earth that will be peaceful and safe (after the purging there). Eventually, select groups of the Saints will head south on the spine of the everlasting hills and then back to the center stake of Zion in Jackson at which time the greatest event ever witnessed by man will occur when the ten tribes make their appearance and fill the plain by sheer virtue of their numbers. They will return to receive their blessings at the hand of Joseph in a temple that will be built for that purpose. It will be an exciting and a glorious time.
There is an interpretation of Isaiah 2:2-3 given by Gileadi that reads thus;
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the nation of the Lord’s house shall be established as the head of the Nations and shall be exalted above all cities; and all gentiles shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the nation of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
In Isaiah Mountains can be used as a metaphor for Nations. And the Hebrew word used here for ‘top’-rosh- can be used as top or head. And the word used for nations, i.e. ‘and all nations shall flow unto it’–goyim- gentiles, is used to mean the gentiles nations/lineages of Israel, of which you have so aptly pointed out that we (LDS) are apart.
So while it is true that to a certain degree the interpretation can be literal. I believe that, ultimately, the metaphorical interpretation would be the prevalent reading and that we not necessarily look for Zion to be on a literal mountain. Because as you have said, MO. is not near any mountain range and that being the case, could render the prophecies of the city of New Jerusalem being in Jackson County null and void.
And when the other scriptures that you cited are read with the metaphorical interpretation
we see that it still fits. Especially with (DC 49:25) in mind, because if a mountain range is required then Zion cannot be assembled to the place which the Lord has appointed, unless the Lord is speaking in broader terms i.e. the whole of Nation of America. (which we know that He is) And this taken in conjunction with (DC 101:20-22) that ‘…there is none other place appointed than that which I have appointed; neither shall there be…’
With this in mind however, I will not be the least disappointed if my belief is wrong.
CCA:
Even your arguement that the history of the world is a chiasm allows for Zion to be build high on a mountain top with Jackson, County MO to have a subsequent future glory. Remember, the archtypal Zion of Enoch was after the Garden of Eden. Here’s a crude and incomplete chiasm. Nevertheless, it makes the point.
a-Adam condending with the devil in the Garden
b-Adam lives outside of Eden (Missouri) and seeks the Lord by Sacrifice-Moses 4:4-6
c-Meeting at Adam Ondi Ahman where Adam blesses his posterity and the Lord appears-see D&C 107:53-56
d-Enoch’s Zion being built at a location distant from Eden and in the high place (see Nibley’s Approaching Zion) and then taken into heaven Moses 6:37-38
e-Christ coming in the meridian of time
d’-Enoch’s Zion coming down from heaven to meet the Saints who have built Zion in the tops of the mountains D&C 84:115
c’-Meeting at Adam Ondi Ahman where Lord is given keys-see 107:53-57 and section 116
b’-Missouri’s glorious future and the sons of Levi offerings again animal sacrifice-D&C 13
a’-Michael fighting the devil at the end of the world
Does this rationalize Denver’s interpretation of Isaiah’s prophecy and satisfy your understanding of Missouri?
For those unwilling to lay down tradition to consider Denver’s suggestions herein, you might either want to,
A: Speak to someone who has had an NDE or vision regarding the matter.
B: Speak to someone who has talked to the Lord or an Angel about this question.
C: Go ask for yourself. The answer will surprise you what has been prepared in the tops of the mountains.
I think Denver is trying to point us forward to where the headquarters of Zion will be built in the future, and what remnant or group, most likely small by that time, will be used to go build it.
In the meantime, we need to re-implement all the laws of the gospel or face destruction with babylon and her nations. This is why we lack the Lord’s word among us… we do not love the laws/keys given us. Another people who regard their holy books better than we just may be used to tread us done as part of our failing to be as serious about our books/revelations as they are.
It is starting to feel like Helaman 13 – 15 when Light and Knowledge comes from an unlikely source.
The Zang Family has left a new comment on your post “Remnant, part IV”:
This may sound strange, but even though leaders have faults, the Holy Ghost never seemed to confirm that Brigham Young was a hypocrite for being overweight while saying his biggest fear was that the Saints would get rich, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church. He was overweight in his later years. He even died from “cholera morbus and inflammation of the bowels” (although that probably isn’t always related to obesity it is interesting).
Could it be that as he was so busy, his wives fed him so much, having the spirit of competition? He spoke so often about nature and the good use of the elements it is unlikely to see him falling to gluttony (and of course, obesity does not always come from gluttony) except out of deference to his wives perhaps.
Could a family trend be the very trend that caused him to use the above quote? If it happened within his own household that they sought to get rich and wax fat, then how were the rest of the Saints faring? Perhaps he could see it developing right under his nose.
It is maybe like this: we bear responsibility in part for Joseph’s death because we wouldn’t let him flee to the Rocky Mountains while at Nauvoo, and maybe we also bear responsibility for wearing out old Brigham, and maybe even John Taylor died of grief knowing we wouldn’t build the kingdom with the same vigor that he had from God.
David O. McKay seems to represent the best fruits of his generation, and Gordon B. Hinckley is another generation.
Perhaps the promptings leaders seem to be influenced by when speaking about our generation may be more about the monumental decision that faces us as opposed to our being monumental spirits (since all children of God are on equal grounds from one generation to the next). Perhaps the tendency to call us monumental spirits is a misinterpretation of the promptings. It is easy to add your own thoughts to a prompting.
The prophets and apostles seem to be laboring to tell us what mistakes their generation made with their interpretation of the Gospel and warning us not to repeat the mistakes. Can we fault them for that?
Perhaps our generation will be faced with the choice that will make it everlasting on the one hand to destruction, or everlasting to the other hand to salvation. That makes the choice we face larger than life, but not us.
[Reposted by CM]
The Zang Family has left a new comment on your post “Remnant, part IV”:
I have been ministered to by angels and have been told essentially to speak whatever comes into my heart, but that demands no respect beyond what the Holy Ghost confirms because even if angels preach any other Gospel than what Christ has in His heart, let them be accursed.
I say that so others can know if it happened for me, it can happen for you. I am really a nobody. And also to say that there is a difference between faith promoting visits from deceased family members and official business. All may receive the “official business”.
Even if it is one of the gifts of the Spirit to behold angels and ministering spirits that not all need to have at first, it IS eventually on the path and should be desired and learned. It should be in this life. My visitations have been nothing spectacular as the world would call it, but they are spectacular to me.
I also say that because I spoke about generations. I am young and have just started the path and am a witness that our generation is afforded the same opportunity. I am from Maryland and have no other real ties to Utah beside moving here with my family for the past 6 years. You can find out for yourself if I speak the truth from the Holy Ghost. I certainly do not want any following and anyone who gets to know me will certainly find out I am not worthy of any such thing, but the truth deserves attention, and I will preach even if it makes me uncomfortable to do so.
-Brian
[Edited and reposted by CM]
Could it be that we have put the wrong interpretation on what Isaiah was talking about in chapter 2 verse 2?
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall shall flow unto it.
SLC is a valley and not the “top of the mountains” and yet all interpretation is generated to mean that SLC is the chosen place. (a product of correlation dept.)
Let’s ponder for a moment – Mountain means “nation”. Could it be possible for Isaiah 2:2 to read like this:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the nation where the Lord’s house shall be established shall be the top nation or the best nation and shall be exalted above lesser nations and all nations shall flow unto it.
And isn’t that really what has happened?
Now we have something to work with in placing Zion in America. It doesn’t matter that Jackson County is flat or that there are no mountains around Adam-ondi-Ahman or that SLC is in a valley.
This is just a brief note to thank the Zang Family for the comments posted. It helped clarify some details of a personal revelation (that concerns only me and my family). Something you said let me know how much the Lord loves me and my family. It also encourages me to keep working to improve my obedience to the lord..
There have been some questions off blog about my post that have brought forth some useful answers for this subject, so I will post them here (you can get an idea of what questions were asked well enough just by reading the answers):
Answer 1:
Everytime I post something I feel afterwards, “I’m done, that’s great, I don’t have any desire to say anything more and I can just sit back and read,” then at some point later I really want to say something and feel good about it, so I say OK. Writing what I wrote was just one of those things on that list as it developed. I just said, OK, even though the topic seems different, it has the same feel as all my other posts. It’s largely being disregarded much like my other posts. I don’t even know that what I write does much good anyway and frankly, it doesn’t even matter.
Denver’s comments about angels not talking all the time are of interest.
Finding out the significance of some visits has taken years. If a picture is worth a thousand words, sometimes it takes a while to read the book in a particular scene.
Sometimes what was once a faith promoting visit at first later became discovered as communicating light and truth for the path. There is a difference, but it may be in your own perspective of the same event more so than a different set of events. I made the distinction because people have those experiences, but look at them through the lens of the culture which shuts up further inquiry towards them by saying “Oh, that’s nice, of course you know grandpa loves you, that’s all there is to it”. But then there are also visits from unidentified angels, too.
All my visits have been in dreams so far or with mortals with a higher commission. And then there are visits without sight while I’m awake, a lot of times in the temple. Only information is communicated in those last instances. I think a good description of that is “hearing the voice of the Lord”. There seems to be higher ways of visits along the path later, but I’m not there yet. I think Denver’s descriptions in his books of the scriptures talking about not knowing whether or not you are in the body or out of it is something different than the “vivid dreams”, but I’m not sure.
I don’t think I’m unique. I think many simply don’t know the significance of the “smaller proofs” that Denver talks about in his books and hence are less open to the natural progress of the proofs towards the sure words of prophesy. My post is an effort to help people appreciate that. By this time in his blog, we ought to at least be mastering the first couple chapters in the 2nd Comforter (which is merely Book of Mormon teachings), right? Or we should go back to square one.
The visits themselves are not particularly important or as important as the last ones with the Savior Himself. It is the light and knowledge communicated that is important, and there are diversities of operations the Lord uses to achieve what is symbolized as a visit from an angel in the temple. Take that for what it’s worth.
Answer 2:
The official business is light and knowledge securely anchored in symbols in the temple. What God says to one, He really says to all if they will listen. The memory of looks fades over time just as if you met someone for the first time and didn’t see them again for a long time. The early Saints were so concerned with special status tasks that led them into errors with false spirits. My visits have come through dreams or no visual at all while awake. What I can never forget is the information communicated. They didn’t speak words most times. It is definitely different than inspiration through the Holy Ghost alone, but it is done by the power of the Holy Ghost. It doesn’t matter what others think of the small and simple ways these visits begin (probably more dramatic later on, but not yet for me). What one is left with is knowing for certain it happened. It is just true, no matter how much you would even try to change it yourself, you can’t escape the reality of it. You may’ve had similar experiences without being willing to recognize it as such for lack of the drama you might expect when these things start more simply at first.
It is like beginning to see with your spiritual eyes. You have to learn to live by that second sight, which for a time has no visual, but exists and is more real than what we perceive with our natural eyes. Then, when those experiences are reality for us, our dreams can become a channel for real visuals of that realm. Denver speaks of a higher manifestation, it seems, when he says one is taken by the Spirit out of their body while their body is protected and they can’t tell whether they are in the body or out of the body (I assume this is higher than vivid dreaming with visitations included). Then, there is a stage I presume where one is protected while in the flesh and a being visits them face to face. I don’t think they have to be sequential, but there is an element of progression and readiness involved, and degree of belief. Read Denver’s first few chapters of the Second Comforter again in this light.
I thought we were talking about the Remnant Lamanites here? It looks to me like the Zang family should go start their own blog elsewhere. Let’s stay on topic.
Part 1:
I have often heard stories of angelic visitations in the temple along with an interpretation of the meaning of the visit: The interpretations usually boil down to “a witness that the work done was accepted”, which is then used to pat ourselves on the back and receive a reward for a labor that should be done without expecting a reward. Or to imply “All is well in Zion” because we have angels among some of us.
But why stop there with a simple witness that what was done was accepted? Angelic ministrations in a temple setting gently imply that angels are willing to minister answers as to what the symbols of the temple mean, particularly small and simple cryptic ones.
We are left to inquire further. They are intended to entice us into questioning, unless we settle on our cultural interpretations that push angels away. It should be apparent that if our ancestors visit us or we feel their presence near in connection to temple work, that maybe they know something about what is going on, but no, we assume we know more than they do and they are just getting a glimpse for the first time.
Shouldn’t we realize they might have something to share having seen the other side? Wouldn’t you think it could relate to temple understandings? Yet we don’t ask, and we don’t receive more. We think we are better than our dead. Of course, not everyone is like that, but you see the trend.
This topic relates to the Remnant because American Indians often are more skilled in the gift of beholding of angels and ministering spirits than we are. If we want to be empowered as ministers as Denver says, we ought to become skilled in this form of revelation as well. We will never share anything with the Remnant through our current intellectual portrayals of concepts. They will want to know we walk and talk with angels and Christ and have knowledge from beyond the veil. We must have the visions that open up these doctrines to our view, or we will never understand them.
How does it look when a missionary goes to give a Book of Mormon to someone who says, “Yes, Moroni visited me and said I would get this from you.” Don’t those missionaries drool and babble about this all day long instead of visiting with Moroni themselves? It should be the other way around. I am guilty as any other member in these things. I say for myself first and foremost, it ought to stop and change.
My testimony about receiving angels is a personal, public step in recognizing in gratitude what I’ve already received that I’ve previously discounted and trivialized in some ways. I’ve kept sacred the parts that are sacred. Hopefully this gratitude will prepare me for more and greater things.
Part 2:
My comments have built on the theme introduced by Anonymous at September 12, 2010 5:54 PM when they said: “C: Go ask for yourself.” Re-read that comment.
What I have said will help others in that quest. As long as Denver doesn’t consider tangents as hijacking his blog and continues to post them, I will go off on tangents, or participate in other people’s tangents. It just may allow him to stay on topic.
I respectfully reject that command to stay on topic or start my own blog, although I can relate to the sentiment. I am not comfortable writing these things myself besides the peace that it brings afterwards. I tell myself the same thing Anonymous at September 13, 2010 9:21 PM said all the time, but I am continually told otherwise. Judge for yourselves if I deceive myself or not. What you decide may make it hard for you to follow your own promptings if you judge harshly.
Not only does the evil spirit teach a man not to pray, it also tries to get them to keep their mouths shut, yet it is the Spirit that giveth utterance. As a people we often try to get others to shut up all the time. We are the people of “taboo” superstitions. We do it to our children. We don’t want to hear them.
I was done on this thread, but what Anonymous at September 13, 2010 9:21 PM said helped illuminate some more cultural trends of ours and helped clarify that this time there actually was a connection to the topic at hand, which was ambiguous at first.
-Brian