14: The Heavens

In this episode Denver addresses the question, “What can you tell us about the testimonies written in the heavens?” 


QUESTION: What can you tell us about the testimonies written in the heavens?

DENVER: “Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar” (Jeremiah 31: 35). If you look up in the morning sky, right now you can see Orion on the eastern horizon, and that’s been true twice a year since the beginning. It’s been true that all of the ordinances ordained by God in the heavens above have remained true from the day that He set them there until today. They are so well established, they are so regular, they are so permanent, and they are so far beyond the ability of man to touch, alter, or destroy that the only way to have an apostasy from those ordinances, from our perspective, is for you to forget what knowledge there is that are written in the heavens. But the Lord wrote it there, it remains there, and it’s still yet part of what is to be restored.

The ordinances that are referred to here in the heavens, if you go to Genesis 1:14, “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and for years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.” And so He sets this up, and He sets this up in order to communicate things.

If you go back to the book of Abraham chapter 4, beginning at verse 14:

“And the Gods organized the lights in the expanse of the heaven, and caused them to divide the day from the night; and organized them to be for signs and for seasons, and for days and for years; And organized them to be for lights in the expanse of the heaven to give light upon the earth; and it was so. And the Gods organized the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, the lesser light to rule the night; with the lesser light they set the stars also; And the Gods set them in the expanse of the heavens, to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night…to divide the light from the darkness. And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that it was night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that it was day; and it was the fourth time” (Abraham 4:14-19).

This is not a bunch of gratuitous language. This is describing something that took place with absolutely deliberate intent. Everything that is written in scripture and all of the ordinances that were ordained upon the earth, in the heavens, were reckoned from the position of the earth. It’s not that the ancients were ignorant of what’s going on in the heavens. It’s that they viewed the heavens as being a testimony given to us on the earth. It is a geocentric– that is, it is from the surface of the earth– that that testimony is written.

From the surface of the earth, the sun occupies a space– even though the sun is over 100 times larger than the earth– the space that the sun occupies in the firmament of the earth is exactly the same as the space in the firmament that is occupied by the moon, although the moon is 1⁄6 the size of the earth. From the surface of the earth they are identical in size. So much so, that when you put them on the ecliptic as they are located, one can block out the other entirely in an eclipse. Because all of these things were ordained by God to testify in the heavens about Him and about His work. And those things are bearing testimony, and they are telling you something.

Abraham had the records of the fathers. Look at Abraham 1:31, “But the records of the fathers, even the patriarchs, concerning the right of Priesthood, the Lord my God preserved in mine own hands; therefore a knowledge of the beginning of the creation, and also of the planets, and of the stars, as they were made known unto the fathers, have I kept even unto this day, and I shall endeavor to write some of these things upon this record, for the benefit of my posterity that shall come after me.”

Since Abraham was acquainted with the priesthood that belonged to the fathers, and since Abraham had a knowledge that was reckoned from priesthood that goes back to the time of the patriarchs, he as a consequence of possessing that, knew about the beginning of creation, knew about the planets, knew about the stars, as they were made known unto the fathers.

“According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest”(D&C 121:32).

Abraham is not merely talking about something– both in this verse, Abraham 1:31, as well as what we encounter later on in the book of Abraham– about the various stars that were shown to him and the relationship between them and his facsimile #2, as I recollect, that is an effort to lay out a relationship in the heavens between certain positions of glory and authority– but Abraham is testifying that it was part of the original gospel that was entrusted to the fathers and that those records were handed down to him.

In Doctrine and Covenants 121 we find out that that’s part of what is supposed to have been included with them and is ultimately scheduled for revelation to those that will receive the restoration of the gospel when it is fully upon the earth in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

If any of you lack wisdom, ask God. He gives to all men liberally. He does not upbraid. That is, he doesn’t send you away discouraged, telling you, “Don’t do that, don’t ask me that.”

We saw in that first talk in Boise that we were commanded to pursue after the mysteries of God. What is more mysterious than what went on in the beginning generations? Because we have so little left from which to reconstruct that, and yet we have enough to know the pattern that the Lord intended the last days to unfold in accordance with, and that pattern was to return us in the end to what was here in the beginning– to return us to a state of knowledge about things that He has always had in His heart as the goal, as the ambition, as the desire to fulfill.

When the Lord hung on the cross, and the sun was darkened at noon, if you looked up in the sky to see what was overhead, you would see the sacrificial lamb in the pattern of the stars that we call Aries today. Proceeding forth from under the foot of Aries– we have renamed it the “bands of Pisces,” but it should be more appropriately rendered the “net of Pisces”– because from under the foreleg of the lamb was cast out a net. And that net gathers in at least two kinds of fish. The larger one that is gathered in the net is circumnavigating the ecliptic and will do so eternally. The larger group in the starfield will never rise up to the north. The smaller group, the smaller starfield of Pisces also caught in that same net, is pointed to the sides of the North where the throne of the Father is found– the spot around which all things revolve.

The religion that was established in the beginning and the testimony that was set out in the stars above us– that testimony remains overhead still. The God of heaven intends for the testimonies that He has given to be understood. And in the beginning they were understood.

Now don’t think that you can start doing Google searches, and you can reconstruct what it was they knew. I know ‘cuz I’ve looked at it, and I’ve looked at the best sources that are out there, and I’ve bought a library of material to look into whether or not it would be possible. And I can tell you that the resources simply do not exist, and you would probably be better off not trying to reconstruct it at this point because even the constellations are so messed up in what has been bequeathed to us.

One of the earliest ones is a constellation that you can find at an Egyptian format at Dendra, and it’s a mess, though the Egyptians tried to preserve the things that came down from the beginning. As we read in the book of Abraham, “the Pharaoh sought earnestly to imitate the order that came down from the beginning”(Abraham 1:26). And the Pharaoh succeeded in large measure in doing that. And he was a righteous man. Pharaoh was not out there freelancing. He was trying to imitate something, and Egypt did a good job of preserving some things that have fallen into decay elsewhere.

But the restoration through Joseph Smith, and the promises that were made to the fathers, and the statement that was made by Moroni to Joseph on the evening that he came to him and talked about and reworded the promise given through Malachi– all of these are pointing to something that is, at this moment, still incomplete; a work that is, at this moment, still undone; a project that remains for us, if we will receive it, to finally receive.

Because the way in which Zion is going to come about is going to necessarily be something that is so comfortable and so familiar on the earth, as a pattern reflecting what it is that exists in the heavens, that they who come not only do not burn them up, but they fall upon them, and they kiss their necks because at last they have a sister and a brother on the earth united by belief, united by covenant, united by knowledge, united by light and truth, or in other words, the “glory of God,” which is intelligence– because the purpose of the gospel has always been to inform, to edify, to raise up, to instruct. It was never meant to be reduced to something that is merely repetitious. It was intended to challenge you to your very core. And what you do and what you think and how you act– it’s intended to make you godlike in your understanding. And you’re not godlike when you’re bored out of your mind in a meeting.

“The mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” The paths of God lie in the heavens. So if you’re going to learn to walk in His paths, you are going to have to learn how to walk in the heavens. “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem”(Isaiah 2:2-3).

The ensign that is prophesied to be established in the context, in the meaning of that day, had reference to a zodiacal– a constellation, a depiction of the heavens themselves. So when an ensign is going to be reared, and it’s going to tell you about how to walk in the paths of God, this is talking about something very, very different than what most of us today would envision.

Zion is going to be a connection between heaven and earth, and at that place you will learn of the God of Jacob’s ways, and you will walk in His paths. Because heaven and earth will be connected, and the stairway connecting the two will be open. And the heavens and the earth will be reunited again. And this is going to happen in the top of the mountains.

And by the way, that whole thing about Kolob is so mangled– Kolob was a star. Kolob was a star within sight. From the vantage point of the earth, which is the entire astronomy revealed to father Abraham, it’s entirely earth-based looking upward– from the vantage point of the earth, looking up at that day (because the precession of the equinoxes changes the alignment of the stars), Kolob was a star. Abraham knew the name of the star. God said to Abraham, “You see that star? From where you sit looking there….” It’s like saying, “okay, from where my thumb is, looking that way, Shay is sitting by my thumb.” That doesn’t mean Shay is on my thumb– he’s some considerable distance from my thumb. Tim is in the direction of my index finger. He’s not on my index finger, he’s some considerable distance there away from– that’s the direction. So if you know the topography of Kolob, you still don’t know where God resides. Because where He resides is in a place hidden in the north.

If I were telling you where the throne of God is today, I could tell you that, but I would use a different star because in our day it has a different name. And in our day it has a slightly different alignment because of the precession of the equinoxes. He is out there, but He’s in a place that is hidden in the north. And it will require the heavens to be rolled to, like a scroll, before you finally see past the veils that prevent us from seeing it. But by that time, if you’re unprepared, it’s too late. Because the glory will be such that you cannot abide it. And when the Lord appears preliminary to the rolling together of the scrolls, He will appear in a hole that is unveiled in which the glory of God in His return is behind Him, along with concourses of angels.

There IS a location. God exists. And Abraham was walked through the geography of heaven, reckoned from the vantage point, or viewpoint, of the earth. And when you leave here, one of the obligations that you have is to find your way back. And in finding your way back, you need to be able to avoid those who seek to bring you back into captivity. Because if you’re brought back into captivity, you may find yourself in a telestial kingdom, or the world in which you presently reside, as the temple endowment puts it. And that’s a rather unpleasant thing to think about. You may find yourself in a casino in Las Vegas talking about things that really matter, in the presence of a place in which such things are not at all treasured.

I would say that the sign of the eclipse is a rather ominous suggestion. Well, it’s part of a pair, you know. There is one Aug 21st of this year, and then there’s a following one, and they essentially– yeah, they make an X across the United States. Well, it’s a fairly dramatic celestial event that suggests possible meanings, like the times of the gentiles are coming to an end and they’re about to be swept away and replaced as the possessors and the rightful owners of the land.

I am of the view that how we act matters, a lot. I think Nineveh got saved because they repented. And if God will spare Nineveh because they repented, then He ought to be willing to spare other people because they’re willing to repent. So the focus of action in what God has been doing shifted from the old world to the new world as a matter of prophecy, as a matter of covenant, as a matter of burden. The focus will be here on this land, primarily, until the Lord’s return. And then Jerusalem will re-acquire significance that they once had, as well. But Zion is going to be on this, the American continent.

Since Zion must precede the Lord’s return, and since this land is a land that has a restriction on it that requires those who are going to occupy it to serve the God of the land who is Jesus Christ, I would say that the sign of the eclipse is a rather ominous suggestion that we could be crossed out, and we could be replaced– unless of course we choose to repent.

There are two great symbols that are identical in size and identical in the position they occupy in the heaven above us. One is the sun, and one is the moon. From the surface of the earth they are exactly the same size. Now admittedly, the moon is what, 1⁄6 the size of the earth and the sun is hundreds of times bigger. But they were placed in the heavens at the relevant distances so that when you’re looking at them, they are identical in the area that they occupy in the heaven above.

The sun is a symbol of Heavenly Father. The moon is a symbol of Heavenly Mother. And they occupy exactly the same position on the ecliptic– they move in the same position across the heavens. The movement of the Mother as a symbol is far more complex than the movement of the sun across the sky. Because the dance that the symbol of our Heavenly Mother is performing is both progressive and recessive. She moves constantly across the sky from the east to the west (once she comes into sight), but every night she moves farther east. And so she begins farther to the east every night and then moves across the night sky to the west. So her dance is far more complex than is the Father’s. His is stable and relatively stationary and relatively predictable.

The symbol of the Mother blotting out the light of the sun in the eclipse is ominous indeed, because when a mother loses hope for her children, that’s a lot more frightening than the father’s ire that happens just about every time there’s a football game on TV. When a Mother gets worked up enough to send a symbol across the land that suggests the blotting out of the light of the Father, it’s something that maybe we ought to sit up and take note about.

And by the way, all these things were once part of the gospel. All of this. Everything. In fact, the D&C says everything that’s above, everything that’s on, and everything that’s beneath the earth. And beneath the earth means from the surface of the earth– it means those heavenly bodies that fall below the horizon and then re-emerge, like the planet Venus re-emerges. It goes under; it’s the evening star, and then it’s the morning star. It changes sides that you see the symbol on. All these things were once part of the gospel, and all of these things will eventually again become part of the gospel once more.

Genesis 1:14 says all that stuff up there was given us for signs. And they’re talking to us. The only way you can obliterate the testimony that’s up there is by our apostasy when we lose light, and we’re ignorant, and we can’t read it anymore. Because we can’t touch that. We can’t make copy mistakes, and we can’t give a poor transcription or make printing errors with that. It’s fixed, and it’s not going to change. But we can lose light and knowledge such that we can no longer understand that testimony.

I think that any time there’s something going on in the heavens, that God means something by it, even if we’re oblivious to it. And the challenge is to not be oblivious to it, but to take it in and then assign it it’s proper weight.

The problem with biblical literalism is not necessarily that what is in the Bible is untrue, but it may be that what is in the Bible is speaking using a vernacular that mankind is unacquainted with. In the vernacular of scripture, the earth is moving in two ways. It is circling the sun on a tilt. Twice a year that tilt aligns so that we have an equinox, which means that there’s exactly twelve hours of sunlight and twelve hours of darkness on that one day twice a year. And then there are solstices when, in the north, the days are the longest ‘cuz it’s leaning towards the sun. And when it gets to the other side it’s leaning away, and at that moment the nights are very long, because in the north, you’re leaning away from the sun.

As it makes this movement in one direction, it’s also wobbling at the poles. The earth is not perfectly stable in how its axis fits. It wobbles. It takes 25,900 years (roughly) for it to complete one wobble at the pole. In the ancient vernacular, because of that wobble, we have a pole star. It happens at this moment to be Polaris. But if you go back several thousand years we had a different pole star. That pole star changes. We also have around the circumference, a group of constellations that everyone on earth can see. Doesn’t matter if you’re in the south, doesn’t matter if you’re in the north– south being below the equator, not Atlanta, or the north, not meaning Canada, it means everything, the northern hemisphere and the southern– there are a group of constellations everyone can see. There are twelve of them. All twelve of them had a story behind them in the beginning. All twelve of them have symbols that represent Christ.

When the pole star changes, which happens about seven times every 25,900 years– when the pole star changes, anciently that change was called a “new heaven.” Likewise, there is a different constellation that appears at sunrise on the vernal equinox and that constellation tells you what age you’re in. Starfields overlap, and sometimes there are gaps. Right now we are in an overlap between– Christ said, “I will make you fishers of men,” and the constellation that that age was identified with is Pisces, two fish. One fish caught in the net is endlessly circling the equator. But another fish, and it’s much smaller– this other fish is headed to the north where you will find God. That constellation is going to be replaced by the “one who is coming.” We call him Aquarius, we also call him the “Waterman”– he is pouring out. A new age will come. If you go back far enough, what he is pouring out is two streams: one stream is water, which gives life, and one stream is fire. “He who is coming” in the great day of the Lord is coming for the great (the water) and dreadful (the fire) day of the Lord to pour something out.

Well it just so happens that the starfields of these two overlap. If you date the return of the Lord by the starfield of Aquarius at its earliest star, then the first sign of the “times of refreshing” would have been about in the 1840’s when Joseph Smith was saying that Christ appeared to him and gave him a message to preach. We have not yet fully exited the starfield of Pisces.

Now all of that is to make this comment: When there’s a new pole star, that’s called a “new heaven;” when there’s a new constellation on the horizon at the vernal equinox, that’s called a “new earth.” There will be a “new heaven” and there will be a “new earth” when Christ returns. And all of these are given, as Christ said in Genesis 1:14, “for signs and for seasons.” And everything testifies of Him. There’s a lot of scientific proof, but there’s a lot of material in the Bible that is simply misunderstood.

This earth is pretty old. And how long it existed before it was considered sufficiently complete for man to occupy it, is not to be measured in days. It’s to be measured in epochs of time referred to generically as “a day,” meaning a period, meaning an agenda.

I’m here as a witness to tell you God is working. There are signs in the heavens above. There are signs on the earth below that testify that He intends to come again.

More will be given in a temple where mankind’s understanding of things kept hidden from the world will be greatly increased when God directs one be built to His name.

There was a time when Christians recognized that the stars of heaven bore witness of the significance of Mary, Christ’s earthly mother. Few Christians now look at the constellations as signs set in the firmament of God as His testimony. The light that was meant to shine on the earth was to illuminate both the eyes and mind of man. Man in the first generations understood this, and a knowledge of the beginning of the creation and also of the planets and of the stars as they were made known unto the fathers, was written by Abraham who received that same understanding.

At the time of Christ’s birth, there were those who understood the testimony written in the lights of the firmament. They reported they saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him. These wise men watched and waited for the heavenly alignment to testify of the birth of a promised King. The Matthew text makes such casual mention of this that we give it little notice. Today Christians and Mormons alike have little understanding of the lights in the firmament, and so, give little heed to the signs set by God in the heavens above. Our ignorance does not mean these signs are meaningless. It only means we are poorly informed of God’s full message.

John’s Revelation mentions two of the heavenly signs that testify of Mary. One of these is on the ecliptic and since earliest times has been identified as a virgin woman, called by us the constellation “Virgo.” The “circle of heaven” is divided into the north and the south at the ecliptic. On the ecliptic, from the north to the south poles, there are twelve constellations that can be seen everywhere on earth. Some constellations cannot be seen from one of the hemispheres, but those twelve on the ecliptic are ever-present overhead. These move in the same plane as the sun, moon, and wandering planets. Most of those who discuss these twelve constellations allocate 360 degrees of the “heavenly circle” into 12 equal, 30-degree segments, allocating for each constellation on the ecliptic the same distance. Today, these twelve constellations are called the Zodiac.

Unlike the equal division between the twelve constellations of the Zodiac, the starfields of these twelve constellations are unequal in size. The two largest starfields belong to Virgo and Aquarius. These two largest of the Zodiac constellations are heavenly witnesses testifying of Christ’s Mother, Mary, and the returning Christ. For Christ’s first coming, the heavenly testimony focuses the greatest part of the starfield on His Mother. We should reflect on what that may mean. We ought to contemplate why Christ’s first coming was symbolized on the heavenly ecliptic by the Virgin Mother. Why was She the focus?

Christ’s Second Coming is the largest starfield on the ecliptic. He will return to pour out judgment, blessing those who follow Him and destroying those who rebel. The destruction of the wicked is what Christ identified as “the end of the world.” Aquarius has two outflows from the water-bearer’s urn. One represents water (giving life) and the other represents fire (purging).

Traditionally we interpret the constellation Virgo as a woman holding a sheaf of wheat in her left hand. The sheaf represents her seed. The brightest star in the constellation, a magnitude 1 star, is “Spica”– “the seed of the woman.” That star is placed on the ecliptic. Most other stars in Virgo are located above the ecliptic. “The seed of the woman” represents Christ. His star on the ecliptic represents that everything in the firmament is divided in relation to Him. All of heaven is either above or below the ecliptic. The position of His star, like His role as Judge, divides the heavens.

Traditionally Virgo is drawn looking down at the earth, facing us. This view places the seed of the woman in her left hand. The left hand is usually a symbol of cursing. The right hand symbolizes blessing. If the seed of the woman is meant to be in her right hand, then she would be drawn looking up, heavenward, and her back would be facing us. Reorienting Virgo to face upward– with the seed of the woman in her right hand– is more fitting.

John described Virgo and the movement of other lights on the ecliptic as follows: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”(Revelation 12:1). The sun and the moon move on the ecliptic through the constellation Virgo and at times “clothe” her and at other times appear “under her feet.” This “wonder” John described is overhead in the starry firmament of heaven as one of the signs put there to testify of heavenly things.

Christ’s Mother, Mary, is a figure of such preeminence, that testimony of Her is emblazoned upon the ecliptic in an enduring, towering figure outlined in the stars. This is not happenstance. It is God’s witness to us. We should accept it as meaningful and ponder on the meaning.

Another of the constellations John mentions is a woman who brought forth a son, who is then caught up to the throne of God. This is also depicted in another constellation. One of the constellations immediately associated with Virgo, located next to her in the northern sky, is a constellation anciently depicted as a mother seated on a throne holding a son in her hands. This image of a woman seated on a throne with her son is located just to the north, above Virgo. It suggests both the mother and her son descended from a throne they once occupied in heaven, and is destined to return again there. If you can accept the witness written of them in the stars of the firmament, then She came to earth with Her Son. And She will return again to a throne in the north. Contemplate what this witness of Mary could mean. Taken at full value, Mary, like Her Son, condescended to come here.

The sun and the moon are symbols of the Father and Mother planted overhead as a testimony from Them to Their children. From the surface of the earth they occupy equal space in the firmament. Although the circumference of the sun is approximately 400 times larger than the moon, the moon is approximately 400 times closer to the earth. As a result, they are visibly equal in size and occupy the same path on the ecliptic. This is why the moon is able to eclipse the sun.

The Father, represented by the sun, is stable, unchangeable, reliable, and predictable. The sun rises every day on the horizon in the east and sets every evening on the horizon in the west. He is unvarying in his course from day to day and year to year. The Mother, represented by the moon, changes each day. She waxes and wanes. She does not just move from east to west, but the moonrise also constantly moves in the opposite direction from west to east. Every day she reappears further to the east before beginning her movement to the west. She moves approximately 50 minutes eastward each day.

Her complex movements overhead were part of the reason she was known anciently as “the Great Dancer.” Her movements display constantly changing motions, contrasting with her companion sun. This contrast between the movements of the sun and the moon reminds me of the quip by cartoonist Bob Thaves about Ginger Rogers, the dancing partner of acclaimed Fred Astaire: “Sure he was great, but don’t forget that Ginger Rogers did everything he did…backwards and in high heels.”

We are often told that life on earth depends on the sun. But life here is equally dependent on the moon. Without the moon slowing the earth’s rotation, we would have only 6 to 10 hour days. The shorter days would result in the earth being much colder, as the sun would have less time to warm the earth’s surface. This would cause a dramatic decrease in plant and animal life. Tides would be eliminated; weather would be more violent. The stable rotation of the earth would change, and we would no longer rotate on a constant axis. The poles and equator would no longer exist or would be constantly changing. The earth’s tectonic plates, continents, and mountain ranges are all formed by the effect of the moon on the earth. Without the moon, there would be less variety in the earth’s habitats. Many life forms could not exist.

Richard Lathe, a molecular biologist at Pieta Research in Edinburgh, UK, advanced a theory in 2003 explaining that life on earth could not have happened without the moon. A number of astronomers believe that life on any planet throughout the universe requires a nearby moon, and without this nighttime companion for the sun, life cannot exist.

Remember also that the brightest star in Her constellation is in Her hand – the “seed of the woman.” The stars testify of Her but point to Her “seed” as the greatest light for us here and now.

The moon reflects the light of her sun, just as Mary did in Her psalm. This physical example testifies to the glory of the Father and the faithful reflection of the Mother. It is the sun that provides the light, heat and gravity governing the planets of this creation under its influence. It is the moon that stabilizes and makes life possible.


The foregoing are excerpts from:

  • Denver’s 40 Years in Mormonism Series, Talk #2 entitled “Faith,” given in Idaho Falls, ID on September 28th, 2013;
  •  Denver’s 40 Years in Mormonism Series, Talk #4 entitled “Covenants,” given in Centerville, UT on October 6th, 2013;
  • Denver’s 40 Years in Mormonism Series, Talk #6 entitled “Zion,” given in Grand Junction, CO on April 12th, 2014;
  • Denver’s 40 Years in Mormonism Series, Talk #8 entitled “A Broken Heart,” given in Las Vegas, NV on July 25th, 2014;
  • Denver’s remarks at “A Day of Faith and Connection” youth conference in Utah on June 10th, 2017
  • Denver’s Christian Reformation Lecture Series, Talk #3, given in Atlanta, GA on November 16, 2017; 
  • Denver’s conference talk entitled “Our Divine Parents,” given in Gilbert, AZ on March 25th, 2018.